Wednesday, Jan. 17, 2001

SEN. ORRIN G. HATCH, R-UTAH, RANKING MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, it's with a great deal of honor and privilege that I present you, as our new chairman, with this very, very important gavel ...

(LAUGHTER)

... to be able to keep order during these hearings and hearings thereafter. But here's the gavel. You have it.

SEN. PATRICK J. LEAHY, D-VT., CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will protect the gavel carefully in the few hours, the brief few hours, I get to do it. And I have a feeling I'll be presenting you with one next week.

This, for the public to know, this gavel is actually made by my son, Kevin, in seventh grade. Shows you how long it's been since I've been chairman of anything.

(LAUGHTER)

It's a privilege to call these hearings to order, and I welcome my friend, Orrin Hatch, and all the continuing members on both sides of the aisle.

We're being rejoined this year by Senator Durbin of Illinois. Senator Durbin was a very valuable member of this committee when he served here before, before leaving to go to a different committee.

Dick, we're delighted to have you back.

We're also joined by Senator Brownback, who has been in the Senate for some time, but this is his first time this year. And Sam and I have worked together on a number of significant pieces of legislation.

And, Sam, I'm delighted to have you in the committee.

SEN. SAM BROWNBECK R-OKLA.: Happy to join you.

LEAHY: I understand my neighbor from New Hampshire who was sitting on these hearings will be leaving, and I'm sorry to have that happen because Senator Smith and I have also worked together on matters. And we do have the ability to check with each other on what the weather is along the Connecticut River.

And Senator Cantwell of Washington state will be joining us, but she and Senator Biden are at the funeral of our former colleague, Alan Cranston, in California. Senator Cantwell first came to Washington as a staff member of Senator Cranston, and Senator Biden and I and several others here served with him.

And they would be here other than that. And of course, we have the nominee, Senator Ashcroft, his wife, Janet, and others who we'll get to in a few minutes.

I welcome Senator Ashcroft, who certainly is no stranger to this committee room, and his family here.

I have said many times, as most of us have, that the position of attorney general is of extraordinary importance. The attorney general is the lawyer for all the people, as the chief law enforcement officer in the country. That's why the attorney general not only needs the full confidence of the president, he or she also needs the confidence and trust of the American people. We all look to the attorney general to ensure even-handed law enforcement and protection of our basic constitutional rights, including the freedom of speech, the right to privacy, a woman's right to choose, freedom from government oppression, and equal protection of all our laws.

The attorney general plays a critical role in bringing the country together, in bridging racial divisions and inspiring people's confidence in their government.

Senator Ashcroft has often taken aggressively activist positions on a number of issues that deeply divide the American people.

Now, he had a right to take these activist positions, but we also have a duty to evaluate how these positions will affect his conduct as attorney general.

On many of these issues and on battles over executive branch or judicial nominees, Senator Ashcroft was not just in the minority of the United States Senate, but in a minority among Republicans in the Senate. Now we have to ask if somebody who has been that unyielding in a policy outlook can unite all Americans. And that's an important question for the Senate.

Now, the hearing is not about whether we like Senator John Ashcroft or call him a friend. All of us do. All of us like him; all of us know him. It is not about whether we agree or disagree with him on every issue. Many of us have worked productively with him on selected matters and then we've disagreed with him on others.

Let me be very clear about one thing: This is not about whether Senator Ashcroft is racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Mormon or anti-anything else. Those of us who have worked with him in the Senate do not make that charge.

But at the same time, I know that all senators and the nominee agree that no one nominated to be attorney general should be given special treatment just because he or she once served in the Senate.

So fundamentally, the question before us is whether Senator Ashcroft is the right person at this time for the critical position of attorney general of the United States. The appointment clause of the Constitution gives the Senate the duty and responsibility of providing both its advice and its consent.

Among the areas we will explore with Senator Ashcroft is how he fulfilled his constitutional duty as a senator in exercising his own advise and consent authority in connection with executive and judicial nominations. We'll explore the standards he would use in making recommendations to the president on executive and judicial appointments if he's confirmed as attorney general.

President Kennedy observed that to govern is to choose. What choices the next attorney general makes about resources and priorities will have a dramatic impact on almost every aspect of the society in which we live. The American people want to know not just whether this nominee will commit to enforce the laws on the books, but what his priorities will be, what choices he is likely to make and what changes he will seek in the law. Most importantly, we will want to know what changes he will seek in the constitutional rights that Americans currently enjoy.

These include what positions he would urge upon the Supreme Court; in particular, whether he'd ask the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade or to impose more burdensome restrictions on a woman's ability to secure a safe and legal contraceptives.

Now, we're proceeding expeditiously with these hearings as requested by President-elect Bush, as I told him I would. But I have also said from the outset that these hearings have to be thorough, but they have to be fair and they will be.

Senator Hatch?

HATCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm glad to welcome the members of the Ashcroft family and you, Senator Ashcroft, the witnesses here today, including Senator Ashcroft's highly accomplished wife, Janet, who has been a professor of business law here in Washington, D.C., at Howard University for the past five years. I want to take a moment to let the Ashcroft family know how much we appreciate their sacrifices while John has served in public office.

John Ashcroft is no stranger to the Senate Judiciary Committee. He served on our committee with distinction over the past four years, working closely with members on both sides of the aisle on a variety of issues ranging from privacy rights to racial profiling.

As a member of the committee, he proved himself a leader in many areas, including the fight against drugs and violence, the assessment of the proper role of the Justice Department, and the protection of victims' rights.

John has an impressive record — almost 30 years of public service.

Eight years as Missouri state attorney general, during which time he was elected by his 50 state attorney general peers to head the National Association of Attorneys General.

Eight years as governor of the great state of Missouri, during which time he was elected by the 50 governors to serve as the head of the National Governors' Association.

Six years in the United States Senate, four of which, he has served here with us on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Of the 67 attorneys general in the history of this country, only a handful come even close to having even some of the qualifications that John Ashcroft brings in assuming the position of chief law enforcement officer of this great nation.

The Department of Justice, of course, encompasses broad jurisdiction. It includes the executive administration of organizations ranging from the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, all of the United States attorneys throughout the country, to the Bureau of Prisons.

It includes, among other things, enforcement of the law in areas including antitrust, terrorism, fraud, money laundering, organized crime, drugs and immigration — just to mention a few.

To effectively prevent and manage crises in these important areas, one thing is certain: We needed to have a no-nonsense person with the background and experience of John Ashcroft. Those charged with enforcing the law of the nation must demonstrate both the proper understanding of that law and a determination to uphold its letter and spirit. This is the standard I have applied to nominees in the past, and this is the standard that I am applying to John Ashcroft here.

During John Ashcroft's 30-year service for the public, he has worked to establish a number of things to keep Americans safe and free from criminal activities: tougher sentencing laws for serious crimes, keeping drugs out of the hands of children, improving our nation's immigration laws, protecting citizens from fraud, protecting competition in business. He has supported funding increases for law enforcement. He held the first hearings ever on the issue of racial profiling.

And he's been a leader for victim's rights in accordance of law and otherwise; helped to enact the violence against women bill, provisions making violence at abortion clinics fines nondischargeable — and bankruptcy; authored anti-stalking laws, fought to allow women accused of homicide to have the privilege of presenting battered- spouse syndrome evidence in the courts of law. As governor, he commuted the sentences of two women, who did not have that privilege. He signed Missouri's hate crimes bill into law. I could go on and on. His record is distinguished.

Senator Ashcroft, during these hearings, we are eager to hear and the American people are eager to hear your plans for making America a safer place to live. A great number of people have said to me that they are tired of living in fear. They want to go to sleep at night without worrying about the safety of their children or about becoming victims of crime themselves.

I know you and I am familiar with your distinguished 30-year record of enforcing and upholding law. And I feel a great sense of comfort and a new-found security in your nomination to be our nation's chief law enforcement officer.

Mr. Chairman, I have one request of my colleagues as we proceed: In keeping with our promise to work in a bipartisan fashion, I ask that we begin with a rejection of the politics of division. If we want to encourage the most qualified citizens to serve in government, we must do everything we can to stop what has been termed the politics of personal destruction.

This is not to say that we should put an end to an open and candid debate on policy issues.

Quite the contrary. Our system of government is designed to promote the expression of these differences, and our Constitution protects it. But the fact is that all of us, both Democrats and Republicans, know the difference between legitimate policy debate and unwarranted personal attacks promoted and sometimes urged by narrow special interest groups.

John Ashcroft, like many of us, is a man of strongly held views. I have every confidence, based on his distinguished record, that as attorney general he will vigorously work to enforce the law, whether or not the law happens to be consistent with his personal views.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, you know that I would have preferred a format similar to that followed for President Clinton's nominees and prior nominees for the last four attorney general nominees: no more than a two-day hearing with outside interest groups submitting their testimony in writing. But I'm sure that you will endeavor to be fair as we proceed with this hearing. I have confidence in that. And I look forward to these proceedings and look forward to participating in them.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator Hatch. And I can assure you the hearings will be fair. There are 280 million Americans who have views on who should be attorney general. There will be interest groups to the left or the right who may have suggestions. Ultimately, there's only 100 Americans who'll get to vote on that issue, and that's the 100 members of the Senate. And it will be — the whole tone of the debate and all will be decided by us.

Just so we can understand, we'll do this. We should give each senator an opportunity for brief opening remarks. I'd ask if they could keep it at three or four minutes. We'll then turn to the nominee, both for the introductions and an opening remark. And then we'll have the opportunity to question the nominee for 15 minutes each in the first go-round and then shorter ones if we need to after that.

What I would do, too, once we have all finished, we'll take a very short break just so that those who are going to introduce him and all will know what's going to happen.

But with that, I would turn to the distinguished senior senator from Massachusetts, and also a former chairman of this committee, Senator Kennedy.

SEN. EDWARD M. KENNEDY, D-MASS.: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding these hearings. They may well be the most important hearings that our committee will have this year. The power and reach of the Department of Justice is vast and the person at its head must have the ability and the commitment to enforce the laws vigorously. The reality and perception of fairness must be without question.

During Senator Ashcroft's quarter-century in public service, he has taken strong positions on a range of important issues in the jurisdiction of the Justice Department.

Unfortunately and often, he has used the power of his high office to advance his personal views in spite of the law of the land. The vast majority of Americans support vigorous enforcement of our civil rights laws, and those laws and the Constitution demand it.

Senator Ashcroft, however, spent significant parts of his term as attorney general of Missouri, and his term as governor, strongly opposing school desegregation and voter registration in St. Louis. The vast majority of Americans believe in access to contraception and a woman's right to choose, and our laws and Constitution demand it. Senator Ashcroft does not. His intense efforts have made him one of the principal architects of the ongoing right-wing strategy to dismantle Roe v. Wade and abolish a woman's right to choose.

Deep concerns have been raised about his record on gun control. He has called James Brady the leading enemy of responsible gun owners. Senator Ashcroft is so far out of the mainstream that he has said citizens need to be armed in order to protect themselves against a tyrannical government. Our government, tyrannical? In fact, he relies on an extreme reading of the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment to the Constitution to oppose virtually all gun control laws.

He doesn't show the same respect for the right of free speech under the First Amendment. In 1978, as attorney general of Missouri, he tried to use the antitrust laws to undermine the right to free speech of the National Organization for Women and prevent a boycott of Missouri by the organization over the state's refusal to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.

As these few examples demonstrate, the clear question before the Senate is whether, if confirmed as attorney general, Senator Ashcroft will be capable of fully and fairly enforcing the nation's laws to benefit all Americans, even though he profoundly disagrees with many of the most important of those laws. His past actions strongly suggest that he will not.

Senator Ashcroft's record in Missouri and in the Senate is extremely troubling on this basic question. Many of us, probably all of us, who have served with Senator Ashcroft respect his ability on the issues and his intense commitment to the principles he believes in, even though we disagree profoundly with some of those principles.

We know that while serving in high office, he has time and again aggressively used litigation and legislation in creative and inappropriate ways to advance his political and ideological goals. How can we have any confidence at all that he won't do the same thing with the vast new powers he will have at his disposal as attorney general of the United States?

President-elect Bush has asked us to look in Senator Ashcroft's heart to evaluate his ability and commitment to enforce the laws of our country. But actions speak louder than words, and based on his repeated actions over many years, it's clear that Senator Ashcroft's heart is not in some of the most important of the nation's laws.

The person who serves as attorney general must inspire the trust and respect of all Americans. Inscribed in stone over the center entrance to the Department of Justice is this phrase: "The place of justice is a hallowed place." All Americans deserve to have confidence that when the next attorney general walks through the doors of justice and into that hallowed place, he will be serving them too.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to the hearing.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator Kennedy.

We'll put Senator Biden's statement in the record and turn to my good friend from South Carolina, Senator Thurmond.

SEN. STROM THURMOND, R-S.C.: Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased that President-elect Bush has chosen John Ashcroft to serve as his attorney general.

Senator Ashcroft is one of the most qualified people selected for this position in many years. He served two terms as attorney general of Missouri, rising to become the leader of the National Association of Attorneys General. He was then elected governor of Missouri, also serving for two terms, and rising to chair the National Governors Association. I would also note that he has a fine wife and family.

Most recently, Senator Ashcroft has been an effective leader in the Senate with a record of legislative accomplishments. For example, he was instrumental in passing a methanphetomine bill to help keep drugs out of the hands of children. Also, he worked in a bipartisan manner with Democrats to support COPS program funding for law enforcement.

In the Senate, his job was to make the laws, but as attorney general, his job will be to enforce the laws. It is clear that he understands that people in different positions have different roles because he has expressed concerns about federal judges who do not understand the separation of powers. I am confident that as attorney general he will enforce all the laws to the best of his ability, whether he helped enact them or not.

I hope that these hearings will not be about whoever the nominee agrees with each senator on every issue. After all, he is the president's choice and the president makes the ultimate policy decisions. A question should be whether he is qualified and will enforce the laws. The answer is clearly, yes.

Twenty years ago, I recommended him to be attorney general for President Ronald Reagan, and would like to place that letter into the record.

LEAHY: Without objection.

THURMOND: And I'd like for that to appear at the end of my statement.

I recognized his abilities then, and the passing years, while he has served as governor and senator, have only reinforced my belief he would have made a fine attorney general in 1981. He will make an outstanding attorney general in 2001.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator Thurmond.

We'll put into record a statement by Senator Biden, who is, as I said, is at Senator Cranston's funeral.

And we turn to the distinguished senator from Wisconsin, Senator Kohl.

SEN. HERBERT KOHL, D-WIS.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Ashcroft, welcome back to this committee.

Based upon what I know of your record thus far, I could not vote for you to be a Supreme Court justice, but this is different. As I said to previous nominees for attorney general, when considering Cabinet nominations I approach the process prepared to give deference to the president's choice. The president is entitled to surround himself with the people he trusts.

This deference, however, does not rise to the level of blind acceptance. And so, Senator Ashcroft, you have a responsibility to convince this panel and the American people that your views will not interfere with the administration of justice.

Laws are administered and interpreted by people. You have strong convictions. You often wear them on your sleeve and you take great pride in your convictions. You certainly are not to be faulted for this.

But it is not credible to say that you are or anyone can just administer the law like a robot, as if the law is not subject to feelings or strong convictions. It is up to you to explain to us why your convictions will not permeate or dominate or even overwhelm the Department of Justice.

Remember, the attorney general must be a role model and not a lightning rod for certain causes. You have been passionate about many issues: civil rights, abortion, gun safety and the environment, to cite just a few.

But there must be no doubt in the minds of Americans that you will fairly enforce the law. The attorney general must vigorously advocate for all Americans and, most particularly, protect those who cannot defend themselves.

Your many years as a politician make some people wonder whether you are prepared to dispassionately administer the law. Surely, you understand that many of the positions you've taken are unpopular with some members of this committee. You shouldn't be condemned for disagreeing with people, but rather you must convince the American people that you will enforce the laws of the land in a way that will make us proud and will make us feel that it is justice that is certainly being done.

I've enjoyed working with you as a colleague, and I look forward to this hearing and your answers to our questions.

Thank you.

LEAHY: I turn to the distinguished senior senator from Iowa, Senator Grassley.

SEN. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, R-Iowa: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to welcome Senator John Ashcroft back to the committee today. I know him, from working with him, to be a man of integrity and also a person who loves America.

I've been privileged to serve with John here in the Senate and on the Judiciary Committee for the past six years. During this time, I've come to respect John's legal abilities and his keen insight into public policy.

John shares my concern about crime and has worked hard in the war against drugs. He's helped increase funding for local law enforcement and pushed for tougher sentences for criminals. John is also extremely concerned about the victims of crimes, having signed into law Missouri's Victims' Bill of Rights when he was governor of that state. John also cosponsored the Violence Against Women Act when he was here in the Senate.

Now John and I come from states where agriculture issues are very important, and we've had a number of discussions about how to best address the myriad of problems that are facing the family farmers today. He's concerned about ensuring competitive markets and a level playing field for farmers and independent producers. Based on my experience with Senator Ashcroft's work here in the Senate, I know that he is committed to doing what is right for the family farmer.

John Ashcroft is a man of the law. He is eminently qualified to serve as this nation's attorney general. His background as governor and attorney general of Missouri are some of the strongest qualifications that I've seen for this job. I believe that he will vigorously enforce all of our nation's laws. I believe that Senator Ashcroft will uphold the rule of law for all Americans, which will be a refreshing change from the way things were done in the present administration, where the Justice Department was more a defense counsel for the president than the nation's chief law enforcer.

John Ashcroft's integrity, then, will be a breath of fresh air.

I do want to make a comment about the mob of extremists who have hit the airwaves and are trying to intimidate members of the Senate into voting against Senator Ashcroft. I hope that my colleagues have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to these extremist accusations. It's remarkable that accusations of bias and racism have increased to a roaring crescendo now that John Ashcroft has come up for confirmation, because if John Ashcroft is so bad, then why did the people of Missouri elect him Missouri attorney general, governor and senator? Would the majority of Missouri citizens support such a biased and extreme man to serve and represent them for well over two decades? I don't think so.

Would the National Association of Attorneys General and the National Governors Association, two national associations representing both Republican and Democratic attorneys general and governors, name such a biased man to lead their organization?

I don't think so. But the smear goes on.

I, for one, will make my decision based on facts, not innuendo, and rumor and spin. I will not let special interests groups with an agenda far out of the mainstream hijack the Judiciary Committee.

John Ashcroft is a man of great character, integrity and trust — all values which are absolutely necessary for public service. He is an excellent lawyer, committed to enforcing all the laws.

Above all, I know John Ashcroft to be a man concerned about the well-being of our country and committed to doing what is right for all Americans. I believe John Ashcroft will be an excellent attorney general, and at this point, I see absolutely no legitimate reason why he should not be confirmed.

I yield.

LEAHY: I thank the senator.

I should just note for the record, Senator Hatch had expressed a wish that we follow procedures of holding the hearing for the nominee, or at most two days. Our committee hearing has been a little bit more varied than that. I would note that the Democratic president nominated Griffin Bell, it was a Democratic-controlled Senate. We had a hearing for seven days. We heard from 26 witnesses. When President Reagan nominated Ed Meese, and there was a Republican-controlled Senate, the hearing was in two parts: the first was four days with 31 witnesses, the second part was three days with 17 witnesses. With President Clinton, his first nominee Ms. Baird, was for two days. There were going to be a number of outside witnesses, but of course the nomination was withdrawn.

Having said that, you know, as I have told the distinguished senator, my good friend from Utah, that if he has witnesses that he wants heard, of course, they'll be heard. There will be no unnecessary delays. I turn now to the distinguished ...

HATCH: If the senator would yield for just one comment on that.

LEAHY: Of course.

HATCH: In the last four attorneys general, we had one day for Richard Thornburgh, we had two days for Attorney General William Barr, we had one day for Janet Reno — or two days for Janet Reno. And I might mention — and she was the sole witness. Bill Barr was his sole witness, other than the introducers, and I think Dick Thornburgh was his sole witness.

And I might add that I can remember when Janet Reno came up and I had every special interest group on the right wanting to oppose her, I refused to allow that. We took their statements and paid attention to them, but I didn't do what we're doing here today.

LEAHY: Mr. Chairman ...

HATCH: Now, you have the right to make this decision. All I'm saying is is that I want to point out that the last three or four didn't go more than two days.

LEAHY: Well, I notice among our ...

HATCH: And they were the sole witnesses.

LEAHY: ... our list of left-wing witnesses, The Heritage Foundation and a few like that, I suspect ...

HATCH: For Mason, two conservatives, that's true ...

LEAHY: I suspect that you're going to have ...

HATCH: ... way back when.

LEAHY: ... that you're going to have all you want, but I would also note, as I said, when the Democrats were in control of the Senate and the Democratic president, it did take us seven days and 26 witnesses when the Republicans controlled. These are my seminal hearings, you see, Senator Hatch. It's ...

HATCH: And I put ...

LEAHY: ... the influence of your party and probably four days — anyway.

HATCH: Well, just one more ...

LEAHY: Can we hear from the distinguished ...

HATCH: Mr. Chairman, just one more point of privilege.

LEAHY: I'm trying to speed this thing up.

HATCH: Well, we know that J.C. Watts asked to testify and he's not on the members' one, and we would like to have the Honorable Kenneth Holsaw (ph) testify on the same panel as the Honorable Ronnie White because he can ...

LEAHY: He's on the members' panel.

HATCH: ... he was the prosecutor in one of the ...

LEAHY: He's on a members' panel and ...

HATCH: But we would like him to be on that panel because then it would be fair because then he can explain what happened.

LEAHY: All right. Let's go on with the ...

HATCH: Well, I hope you'll give consideration to that because it would be highly unfair if you don't.

LEAHY: Well, I think the difficult thing, as you know, we sent you over our list of witnesses. And then we waited and waited for days to hear back from you.

HATCH: I always waited for yours, as well.

LEAHY: This is the distinguished and highly confident senior senator from California.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF.: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the people of this nation deserve an attorney general who will be honest, strong and fair, whose integrity is beyond question and who will vigorously protect the rights of every American under law.

In my meeting with Senator Ashcroft, I assured him that I would keep an open mind and do everything I possibly could to see to it that he got a full and fair hearing. And I believe he's going to get just that. So I've not yet taken a position on whether I would or would not support his nomination to be attorney general of the United States.

But Mr. Ashcroft's past positions on civil rights, on human rights, on segregation, on affirmative action, on a woman's right to choose, on gun laws are very different from my own. All of the above areas are, today, covered by law. For civil rights, we have the Civil Rights Act and Title VII. For a woman's right to choose, the United States Supreme Court has adjudicated Roe v. Wade. For gun control, the ban on assault weapons, which I had something to do with, the National Firearms Act and the Brady bill are all laws of our land.

We all know Senator Ashcroft as an independent thinker, as a strong advocate for his beliefs. Many of us on this committee have worked with him on various pieces of legislation; I, for one, on methamphetamine. And he has been gracious, true to his word and a very good person with whom to work.

For the past six years as senator and before that as governor, John Ashcroft served as a representative of the people of Missouri. This advocacy was both appropriate and strong-minded. But the attorney general of the United States must be prepared to use the full force and authority of that position to vigorously enforce all laws, regardless of personal belief. It's not enough, for example, for an attorney general to say he will enforce the laws and then appoint a solicitor general whose goal will be to undercut them.

And all of this raises in my mind serious questions. Can we expect, for example, an unabashed and vocal opponent of reproductive rights for women to vigorously enforce laws that protect a woman's right to choose? Will Senator Ashcroft continue to vigorously enforce the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act and retain the National Task Force on Violence against Health Care Providers? Would Justice under his leadership provide a vigorous defense of Roe v. Wade?

Will he fully enforce and support the ban on assault weapons and large-capacity ammunition clips, and the Brady law? Would he be steadfast in opposition to allowing violent felons to obtain guns, simply by applying for this right to be restored?

Would he unwaveringly and vigorously use the office of attorney general to protect Americans from violent hate crimes and other civil rights violations? Would he ensure that no citizen's right to vote is compromised by an illegal act?

These are questions that don't relate to character or integrity, but they are also questions that must be answered.

Today, we begin the process of ensuring that our system of laws will be enforced with moral authority and fair effectiveness. So I look forward to asking some tough questions, hopefully receiving good answers, and giving Senator Ashcroft the full and fair hearing.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: And I turn now to the distinguished senior senator from Pennsylvania, Senator Specter.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, R-PA.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

From the opening statements, it's perfectly apparent that the battle lines are pretty well drawn — pretty hard to even agree on a schedule. Fortunately, the hearing room table is set in advance, so there's no dispute about that. And for a Senate which has talked so much about bipartisanship, we haven't gotten off to a very good start on the first issue which we are confronting.

It would be disingenuous for any of us to say that we don't have views about former Senator John Ashcroft. Having worked with him for six years, including extensive work on this committee, I had thought that I knew John Ashcroft pretty well until I started to read about him in the papers and listen to the electronic media.

Well, seriously, we know about his strong ideological views, and the critical factor, obviously, is whether John Ashcroft has the ability and the willingness and the temperament to separate his own personal views from law enforcement. And there is a big difference.

On a lesser scale, I served as a prosecuting attorney, DA of Philadelphia, so I know what it's like to enforce laws that I don't particularly agree with.

And I think it is fair and this committee has a constitutional responsibility to find out from John Ashcroft that he will give assurances to the American people on critical issues.

A matter has already been raised about the right to choose and access to abortion clinics. And I think it is significant that Senator Ashcroft voted on a bankruptcy issue counter to those who would try to stop abortions. The issue is whether somebody who had a judgment in a civil case would be discharged in bankruptcy, which is the general rule. Without getting too deeply involved, John Ashcroft voted that they should not be discharged in bankruptcy if the judgment came from blocking an abortion clinic.

There are legitimate concerns about the First Amendment as to Attorney General John Ashcroft's views, if he is confirmed, enforcing the separation of church and state. There is no doubt about the latitude for a president's Cabinet, for, in effect, the president's lawyer, although the attorney general is the lawyer of the American people as well. And there is also no doubt about the enormous difference between a federal judgeship, say a Supreme Court judgeship, where ideology would play a very different role than would the nation's chief law enforcement officer.

We are under a microscope, as we all know, ladies and gentlemen, and I hope that we can put partisanship aside. There is no doubt that if it becomes a partisan issue, that this nomination can be blocked by a refusal to cut off debate. And feelings are running very, very high, lots of calls on both sides, great intensity. I haven't seen this much intensity for more than a decade, not that we haven't had it in this room, but not for more than a decade.

And if the passions run high enough and partisanship takes over, it will not be in the interest of the American people.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator.

The distinguished senator from Wisconsin, Senator Feingold.

SEN. RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, D-WIS.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by touching on two general principles to guide our consideration of Cabinet nominations. The first principle is that the Constitution imposes the duty on the president to faithfully execute the laws, and he is expected to propose new laws. To carry out these duties, the president needs advisers and policy-makers in the Cabinet to advance the president's program. Over the history of such nominations, the Senate, with rare exceptions, has given the president broad leeway in choosing subordinates.

The second principle that I think should govern nominations is what we might call the political golden rule. We, as Democrats, should, if at all possible, do unto the Republicans as we would have the Republicans do unto us. A Democratic president ought to be able to appoint to the Cabinet principled people of strong progressive or even liberal ideology. And therefore, a Republican president ought to be able to appoint people of strong conservative ideology.

Now, whether doing so is good politics, or more importantly is wise, in light of a promise to unify the nation after a very close election, is a very important issue for a sustained national debate. But that is not at the core of our responsibility in this body to advise and consent on Cabinet nominations.

Now, as to the case of former Senator John Ashcroft for attorney general, I think John Ashcroft is highly qualified, from the points of view of competence and experience. During the past six years, I've had the opportunity to get to know John Ashcroft as a colleague. I have had little contact with him outside the Senate floor or the committee rooms. In one of those very few encounters, I and Senator Paul Wellstone were walking outside the Capitol, and John Ashcroft offered us a short ride to our homes.

Let me tell you on the record, it should give at least some comfort that he was not nominated for secretary of transportation.

(LAUGHTER)

It was a kind gesture, but a wild, somewhat hair-raising ride.

Advise and consent, however, is not about who is a nice guy or collegiality. And in all seriousness, this is a very painful nomination for many Americans in light of John Ashcroft's views and votes on many issues, ranging from the right to choose, to gay-lesbian rights, to affirmative action, to the environment, to others. And I am also alarmed by some of these views.

Yet my own direct experience with John Ashcroft has been positive in the sense that he has been much more open to my strong feelings on issues, such as the outrageous practice of racial profiling, than almost all of his Republican colleagues on this committee and in the Senate as a whole. He and his staff not only permitted, but assisted in a significant and powerful hearing on racial profiling in the Constitution Subcommittee which John Ashcroft and I led at the time.

Nonetheless, although that experience is certainly relevant to my consideration, I want the individuals and groups that have raised concerns about the nomination to know this: I understand and agree that that experience should be one and only one of many other more important factors to be considered in judging the fitness of this nominee as attorney general.

In fact, as I consider the merits of this nomination, I can't help but take this moment to express my concern about the attitude and approach that the former and then future Republican majority in the Senate has taken since 1996 in considering executive appointments and judicial appointments. The previous majority — and, yes, sometimes led by John Ashcroft — seemed never to accept the legitimacy of President Clinton's 1996 victory.

Instead, in my view, they unfairly blocked many legitimate qualified appointees, such as Bill Lann Lee, Ronnie White and James Hormel. I think this is wrong. And even Chief Justice Reinquist blamed the under-staffing of the federal judiciary on this questionable approach. This is the very partisanship with which the American people have grown so frustrated and dismayed.

So it is not easy to tell those who fought so hard for Clinton and then for Gore that we should follow the golden rule, do the right thing, and not use a similar approach during the next four years. That's my inclination, but I openly wonder at what point we have to draw the line, given the previous majority's refusal to accord the Democrats the very deference that they, the Republicans, now seek.

Let me also commend the individuals and groups with whom I agree on virtually all of the key issues for prompting a significant national discussion on this nomination. Despite criticism, you are right to intensely scrutinize this nomination. Regardless of the outcome, this process will reap long-term benefits as these legitimate and heartfelt concerns I heard by all senators and the American people.

But in the end, Mr. Chairman, let me also repeat my conviction, as this hearing begins, that voting records and conservative ideology are not a sufficient basis to reject a Cabinet nominee, even for attorney general. I say this as a progressive Democrat from Wisconsin who hopes that the William O. Douglases and Ramsey Clarks of the future will be appointed to executive positions and Cabinets and not be rejected on that basis alone.

In other words, Mr. Chairman, being in the middle of the road is not a requirement for a Cabinet position.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator.

I turn to the distinguished senator from Arizona, Senator Kyl.

SEN. JON KYL, R-ARIZ.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it is appropriate, first, that we welcome our colleague back to this committee, and I do that with great fondness — and also his wife, Janet, who is here.

Second, that we focus a little bit on the standard for judging nominees of the president to Cabinet positions. And both Senators Feinstein and Feingold have, I think, spoken eloquently to that point here. And I would like to in a moment, as well.

The last Cabinet secretary we had a chance to vote on was the treasury secretary, Larry Summers. And I remember at the time, he had spoken out very strongly against tax cuts, and I'm very much for tax cuts. I thought some of the things he said were relatively outrageous in that regards. But I voted to confirm him, as did I think every one of my colleagues, because of the standard which I think has historically been applied. And I'd like to quote an eloquent statement of that standard by a member of this committee in connection with another nominee a few years ago.

Our colleague at this time said, "The Senate has a responsibility to advice and consent on Department of Justice and other executive branch nominees. And we must always take our advice and consent responsibilities seriously because they are among the most sacred. But I think most senators will agree that the standard we apply in the case of executive branch appointments is not as stringent as that for judicial nominees. The president should get to pick his own team. Unless the nominee is incompetent or some other major ethical or investigative problem arises in the course of our carrying out our duties, then the president gets the benefit of the doubt. There is no doubt about this nominee's qualifications or integrity. This is not a lifetime appointment to the judicial branch of government. President Clinton should be given latitude in naming executive branch appointees, people to whom he will turn for advice."

And our colleague went on to say, with respect to this particular nominee, "Yes, he has advised and spoken out about high profile constitutional issues of the day. I would hope that an accomplished legal scholar would not shrink away from public positions on controversial issues as it appears his opponents would prefer. One can question Professor Delanger's (ph) positions and beliefs, but not his competence and legal abilities."

The eloquence, of course, is easily recognized as that of the chairman, Senator Leahy of Vermont, speaking on behalf of Walter Delanger (ph), who was confirmed for assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel, in which he acquitted himself admirably.

And I think that is the standard. And when applying it to John Ashcroft there can be no doubt that he should be confirmed.

Others have spoken of his qualifications. Perhaps it would be of interest to note that he is the first attorney general nominee in the history of the United States that has served as state attorney general, governor and U.S. senator.

Only six of the 67 former U.S. attorneys general had even some of Senator Ashcroft's experience. He led the National Association of Attorneys General. He was chairman of the National Governors Association, as well as chairman of the Education Commission of the states. And as all of my colleagues know, he served on this committee and chaired the subcommittee on the Constitution. He has the intelligence, a degree from Yale and the prestige law degree from the University of Chicago. And, of course, I think no one has questioned his integrity.

Now, there have been questions raised. I think, if my colleagues have an open mind, as both Senator Feinstein and Senator Feingold noted, Senator Ashcroft can answer many of these questions. I would just note, for example, that with respect to the charge that he opposes virtually any gun control, you can be assured that that's simply incorrect. And he will make that clear.

I think at the end of the day one thing is very clear. There have been two interesting assertions made with respect to Senator Ashcroft by opponents. The first is that he has very strong convictions, faith and belief in God. Indeed, he does.

The second is that he may not enforce the law and the Constitution. Well, the second assertion is at odds with the first. You can be assured that when John Ashcroft places his hand on the Bible and swears to uphold the laws and the Constitution, that he will do that on behalf of the people of the United States of America.

LEAHY: I would note, as my friend from Arizona has quoted me, just so people understand the setting for that vote on Walter Delanger (ph), this was a matter that had been delayed by secret holds on the Republican side for months. And I was arguing they should vote him up or vote him down. He was not the attorney general; he would take orders from the attorney general, something that makes a big difference. But what I wanted was a vote up or down. And when the secret holds were released, he was confirmed.

I turn to the distinguished senior senator from New York.

SEN. CHARLES E. SCHUMER, D-N.Y.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And welcome, Senator Ashcroft. I know we have our differences, but I want to thank you for being open and honest with us in this process and making yourself available to all of our questions.

In return, let me be straight with you. As you know, I have misgivings about your nomination to be attorney general. I haven't come to this conclusion easily. Unquestionably, you deserve a full and fair hearing and a real chance to tell your side of the story.

Moreover, I believe we owe a significant level of deference to the president in his choices for Cabinet. The president does not have carte blanche, but usually the presumption at least begins in favor of his nominees. I will support the vast majority of the president-elect's nominees, even though I don't agree with them on many issues.

I know that a number of my Democratic colleagues initially voiced some support for your nomination because of this presumption, but I think now that the record has been more closely reviewed, the burden of proof has shifted back to you.

When we met privately last week, I asked Senator Ashcroft what role ideology should play in our confirmation process. I meant that question sincerely. It's a difficult issue that many of us are wrestling with.

A few years ago, Senator Ashcroft opposed the nomination of Bill Lann Lee to be the assistant attorney general for the Civil Rights Division at DOJ. At the time, this is what he said about Lee, quote, "He has, obviously, the incredibly strong capacities to be an advocate, but I think his pursuit of specific objectives that are important to him limit his capacity to have a balanced view of making judgments that will be necessary for the person who runs that division."

Looking back now, I think Senator Ashcroft was correct, at least when it comes to evaluating nominees who have an ideological bent that is significantly outside the mainstream. In other words, the issue should be whether a nominee's fervent beliefs and views are so one- sided that we lose faith, that the American people lose faith, in that person's ability to carefully evaluate, abide by and uphold the law, the law as it is not as he might like it to be.

This is even more the case for an attorney general nominee, because the position requires the utmost in balanced judgment, clarity of thought, sound use of discretion, and cautious decision-making.

The question I hope these hearings will help us to answer is whether John Ashcroft's passionate advocacy of his deeply held beliefs over the past 25 years will limit his capacity to have the balanced worldview necessary for an attorney general.

This is a man who has dedicated his career to eliminating a woman's right to choose. He believes that abortion is murder, that it's wrong and that it must be stopped. He has led the charge to enact new hurdles and restrictions against choice.

Senator, you have told me you will enforce the law, but just saying so isn't enough. When your solicitor general gets the chance to tell the Supreme Court to follow Roe v. Wade, will you demur? When the HHS secretary calls you for an analysis of new regulations restricting the right to choose, will your analysis be based solely on the current state of law? When you allocate the billions of dollars that DOJ receives, how much will go to protecting the clinics where you think murder is being committed?

Senator Ashcroft, as much as I respect you as a person and your faith, your past causes me grave concern on these issues. And like Bill Lann Lee, when you became the attorney general of Missouri, you did not relinquish your role as a passionate advocate. You sued nurses who dispensed contraception and continued litigating against them for years, despite being told by every court you came before that you were wrong.

You sued the National Organization of Women under the antitrust laws to muzzle their attempt to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. Will you now use, as United States attorney general, that office to continue crusading against those you passionately and fervently disagree with?

Senator Ashcroft, the issue boils down to this: When you have been such a zealous and impassioned advocate for so long, how do you just turn it off? This may be an impossible task.

And I would say to my friend from Wisconsin, this goes beyond ideology; it goes directly to and is unique to the Cabinet position of attorney general, the chief law enforcement officer of the land.

Senator Ashcroft has been a leading advocate against gun control. He has fought to kill legislation that would have made it easier to catch illegal gun runners. He has vociferously opposed even child safety locks and the assault weapons ban. When the U.S. attorney from New York or Wisconsin calls him and pleads for more resources to prosecute gun runners, will this be a priority?

For many years in Missouri, Senator Ashcroft was a leading advocate against desegregation, he's been on the forefront of arguing against gay rights and for lowering barriers between church and state. In short, John Ashcroft has for decades now been knee-deep in many of the most significant, yet decisive, issues in our country.

What this hearing must get at is whether he can now step outside this ideological fray, set his advocacy to one side and become the balanced decision-maker with an unclouded vision of the law that this country deserves as its attorney general.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: The distinguished senator from Ohio, Mr. DeWine.

SEN. MIKE DEWINE, R-OHIO: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

We are now at a place in our nation's history where it sometimes seems as if there is a direct relationship between the qualifications, the experience, the length of service of the particular nominee and how contentious and how difficult the nomination process is.

Today, we have a nominee who has extensive experience, who is extremely well-qualified: assistant attorney general of Missouri, eight years as attorney general, eight years as governor, six years as U.S. senator, member of this Judiciary Committee.

Therefore, I guess it should come as no surprise that he's taken positions, that he's taken positions on many, many issues. He's cast thousands of votes and he has a long track record.

Nor, frankly, should it come as a surprise that a record of a quarter of a century would generate criticism. I think we would worry if he hadn't taken tough positions. I think we would worry if, after a quarter of a century, there wasn't something controversial about what he had said or what he had done.

I intend, during this hearing, to listen. My personal experience with John Ashcroft over the last six years convinces me that he is a man of integrity, he is a man of honor, he is a man of courage.

The position of attorney general is unique, as my colleagues have already pointed out, among members of the United States Cabinet. His is, in many respects, the most difficult job, because he is the person who must, by statute, give advice to the president of the United States. But he is also, in essence, the chief law enforcement officer of the country.

Ultimately, the tenure of John Ashcroft as attorney general or the tenure of any attorney general will be judged not on any one particular decision that he will make, not on any one particular policy that he will take.

Ultimately, this attorney general and any attorney general will be judged on how he is perceived, how he is perceived by the public on much more essential issues and much more essential questions: the question of whether or not he was a man of integrity, whether or not he was a man of honesty, whether or not he had the courage to tell the president yes when it was right to tell him yes, and also to tell him no, if that was he needed to tell him.

I'm going to listen. But I am convinced, based upon what I have heard so far and what I know about John Ashcroft, is that after he has been attorney general the people will look up and say, "Yes, this was a man of integrity. We did not always agree with him. We may have disagreed with him on some issues. Maybe he wasn't always right. He gained the respect of the American people and he brought honor and integrity to the office."

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator.

Just so we'll let people know where we are, we have four more senators to speak and we will try to stay within the three to four minutes each. And then, what I will do at the end of these four, we will take — as I've told Senator Ashcroft and Senator Bond, Senator Hutchison and others, we'll take a short break just so we can recoup and then come back and have the introductions and the opening statements.

The distinguished senator from Illinois, Senator Durbin.

DURBIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is good to be back on the committee and it's interesting that this would be the kick off for my return to the committee, a hearing of this consequence.

LEAHY: We like you senior senators over here.

DURBIN: Well, thank you.

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement made by Senator Hatch relative to the nature of this hearing and this investigation.

John Ashcroft, this should have nothing to do with your personal life or family life. As some have said, the politics of personal destruction should come to an end. And I don't believe this hearing will engage in any questions relative to that, nor should it. For a good reason: You have a fine family you're very proud of, and we have plenty to concern ourselves with, relative to the issues before us.

Some have suggested, though, that we're off to a rocky start here in this evenly divided Senate by having such a contentious hearing. Well, this hearing was not the idea of any Democrat, it happened to be the idea of the founding fathers in Article II, Section 2, when they said it would be the responsibility of the Senate to give advice and consent to the president of the United States in his nominations.

I don't think that that was a casual reference or surplus verbiage. I think, in fact, they decided very carefully that they would restrain the part of the president and make certain that the chosen leader of our nation would be subject to review in these decisions by another branch of government.

Senator Ashcroft, on the day, December 22, when President-elect George Bush nominated you to be attorney general, you made a brief statement which many of us have seen, and said at one point, and I quote, "President-elect Bush, you have my word that I will administer the Department of Justice with integrity, I will advise your administration with integrity, and I will enforce the laws of the United States of America with integrity."

Integrity, by common definition, is a unwavering commitment to a set of values. There is no quarrel that your public life shows a commitment to a set of values. There is no doubt that your service as attorney general will be guided by a set of values.

The question before this committee is, what will those values be? Will they be the values embodied in the laws of the land, many of which you have publicly opposed: a woman's right to choose, sensible gun control, civil rights laws, human rights protections? Will they be the values of President-elect Bush and Vice President-elect Cheney, many of which differ from your own public record? Will they be your values, the values in your heart, which have guided you throughout your public life?

The role of the attorney general, as described in the definition of the Department of Justice, first to enforce the law, and that is fairly obvious. And in conclusion, it says to ensure, quote, "the fair and impartial administration of justice for all Americans."

Can you guarantee fair and impartial administration of justice if you believe some Americans are undeserving or engaged in conduct which you find morally objectionable?

As sound as America's principles may be, we must concede that we are not a perfect people. We have struggled throughout our history with issues of equality for women, African-Americans, Hispanics, new Americans, the disabled, people of diverse religious belief, people with different sexual orientation.

This last election has left America divided, and I know that the new president has suggested that he wants to unite this great nation. And I sincerely hope that he can.

He knows that his biggest challenge will be to reach out and win the confidence of many who opposed him — families and women and minorities and new Americans and those concerned that his views are outside the mainstream of American values. And no office has a more direct impact on the lives and fortunes of these groups and all Americans, for that matter, than the office of attorney general.

If minority voters feel disenfranchised by backward election technology and politically biased oversight, it's the attorney general who must protect their rights. If women feel their reproductive choices, including their right to choose the best family planning for them, is threatened by violent demonstrators, it's the attorney general who must protect them. If those with different sexual orientation feel the pain of discrimination and threat of bodily harm, it is the attorney general and the Department of Justice who must protect them.

Senator Ashcroft, several weeks ago you and I were on an airplane together, you with your wife and I went alone to the funeral of former Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan.

It was a wonderful gesture on your part to be there, considering the fact that you were in the midst of a campaign. It was a funeral service that I will long remember.

At the end of that service, as I was leaving, someone pointed to me and said, "Senator Durbin, this group over here is the Missouri Supreme Court."

And I said, "Is Justice Ronnie White among them?"

They said, "Yes, he's the gentleman standing over here."

And I went over and met him for the first time and introduced myself. And I said, "I'm Senator Dick Durbin what happened on the floor on the United States Senate. That never should have happened."

He faced an embarrassment and a humiliation on the floor of the Senate which did not have to happen. If there was a heartfelt belief by the senators from Missouri that he should not have been a federal district court judge, it should never have reached that point in time. And it rarely ever does in the history of the United States Senate.

I have said to you personally and I will say to you at this hearing, I'm going to be asking you a number of questions about that decision and about the process and the way this man was treated. I think that is going to tell me a great deal about your conduct if you become attorney general.

During the course of this hearing, Senator Ashcroft will be given a chance to explain his vision of the office, to reconcile clear conflicts between his public record and the new responsibilities he seeks, and to give us and America a chance to look into his heart. This open, fair hearing is an opportunity which was often denied to many who sought the approval of this committee, but it is an opportunity which you will have.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LEAHY: Thank you, Senator.

And we will put Senator Cantwell's statement also in the record. As I said, she's at former colleague Senator Cranston's funeral.

And I would recognize the distinguished senator from Alabama, Senator Sessions.

SEN. JEFF SESSIONS, R-ALA.: I thank the chairman.

John, welcome to the pit. Those were the words of Alan Simpson, I believe, when Justice Scalia appeared here. And it's not a pleasant place to be. There are effective organized groups. One of the members said they are a seasoned coalition. There is a seasoned group that knows how to tarnish individuals who come before a committee when they want to.

And as Senator DeWine noted, you, indeed, have a long and distinguished career that includes a lot of litigation and a lot of positions that you've taken, as you believed was right, and there's somebody that can complain about a lot of that. And I hope the burden of proof has not shifted; that wouldn't be appropriate, but it would be consistent with what Senator Simpson said in this committee once that we're more like prosecutor and accused than a confirmation hearing.

Well, I love the Department of Justice. I spent 15 years in the department as an assistant United States attorney, 12 years as United States attorney, served five different attorneys general. I believe in that department. It is a great department. It is the Department of Justice and, frankly, we may have had an attorney general who was right on some of our colleagues' ideological issues, but I don't think the department has run well. I think there's some problems there. I think it needs new, vigorous, positive leadership and as people have described your background, I think you're perfect for that and I'm honored to support you.

I don't expect anything to come out that would change my mind. Certainly the things that have come out that I have seen and studied are insignificant — differences of opinion that we might have that should not change our view about your qualifications.

The attorney general is a law enforcer. There is a big difference between a politician and a senator, where we vote on policy, and executing policy. To me, I haven't had much difficulty making the switch from prosecutor, professional career, attorney general in Alabama to the — actually, I may have had more problem than you're going to have going back.

(LAUGHTER)

But there is a difference and it's pretty cleared in our minds. And I think, as an eight-year attorney general, you'll not have any difference problem going back and enforcing the law as written.

I would say this: I was surprised, Senator Specter, that John supported Chuck Schumer's bankruptcy bill. I tried my best to stop that amendment and I didn't know you had voted the other way on that, but it was ...

(LAUGHTER)

LEAHY: You're going to have plenty of time to let him know how you think about that.

SESSIONS: But I don't think the attorney general is particularly unique in setting policy.

HHS people, they set policy about whole kinds of contraceptives, very sensitive issues and health issues. There are sensitive issues in Labor that the labor secretary gets to set. I'm not sure the attorney general gets to set many issues at all; basically just has to carry out the laws that are set.

I do think bipartisanship is important. I support President Bush's commitment to bipartisanship. I'm going to try to do better this time.

I supported Trent Lott in trying to reach an agreement that we wouldn't be fighting here in the beginning of this session, even though some felt maybe it had gone too far. We need to work together. And I think this hearing is a bit of a test.

The independent groups, hard-left that they are, have every right to speak and advocate and raise questions. But I think this body needs to evaluate it and give John Ashcroft a fair hearing, in terms of what was known to him, what was the circumstances when he made these decisions, and not take them out of context and give it a spin that's unfair to him. All of us have done things, if taken out of context and twisted about, could be an honest statement, but be a misrepresentation of what's happening.

John has not been an obstructionist here. I've looked at the numbers. He voted for 95 percent of President Clinton's judicial nominees. He voted for 26 of 27 African-Americans; the only one that was raised, Ronnie White, is the only one he's opposed. And he had a personal and good reason for that, in my view.

He's going to be a champion of prosecution of gun laws. Under this administration prosecutions have dropped. I've talked to John about it. He's committed to me that he's going to work to increase the number of people that are prosecuted for violation of gun laws in America. And in my view, they can be done dramatically with no new resources, frankly.

And on Bill Lann Lee, this committee split on that vote.

And, Chairman Hatch, if you'd like to read a brilliant address on it, read his speech on the floor about why he opposed Bill Lann Lee. That was not a racial thing. It was a serious discussion about his views about whether or not he would actually follow the Adarand Supreme Court decision. The Adarand case, he said he would support, but the way he defined it, in our view, was not an accurate definition of it. So then he would not be enforcing Adarand if he didn't properly understand Adarand. So that was the basis of our opposition there.

So I would just say this: I believe that John Ashcroft has all the gifts and graces to make a great attorney general. I believe he will be a great attorney general. I believe he will serve this country with distinction. I believe this department will flourish under his leadership. I know he will be responsive to us if we have problems. I know and he knows who the captain of the ship is, and that's the president, at whose pleasure he serves.

I believe in John. I think all of us do. I ask each member of this committee: Listen to the complaints, but think about the context, the values he held, ask yourself if he abused his office or did wrong on any significant matter. I don't think you will find that to have occurred. And I would like to see a very strong vote for John Ashcroft for attorney general.

Thank you.

LEAHY: Thank the senator from Alabama.

I give it now to my neighbor from New Hampshire, Senator Smith.

See part two of the text.

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